What's more annoying than libertarians who talk smack about a government program, and when you ask them if they have a better idea, they just say "the free market will decide"?

Dude, that's you. You're the free market. Come up with something.

@thedesertlynx

But that is exactly the point and the beauty with free markets. The individual before you is not the market, and you are not the market. The market is the aggregate of every actor on the market, so demanding that the individual in front of you should come up with a ready made solution is not what libertarianism is about.

If it would be you and me I could of course speculate, but the actual outcome and implementation will only come about after numerous people have (...)

@thedesertlynx speculated and tried and reiterated their concepts on the market.

@h4890 Yes that's part of the point, the market is composed of people trying. The fewer people try, the longer it'll take for a market solution to present itself... and nature abhors a vacuum, and government LOVES said vacuum.

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@thedesertlynx @h4890 So a contradictory point to your point is part of your point?

I appreciate the irony of your post about annoying libertarians, but I'm afraid you don't fully understand libertarianism. You're against governments and you stopped there, I think.

I get what you mean, but I feel like your thinking is kinda backwards. You won't motivate anyone by telling them that they are lazy if they freely won't propose solutions in a free market that we don't even have in the first place.

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx

Ahh, but keep in mind that markets can ramp up and down way faster than any government as well. Just remember the umbrella salesmen in new york!

So no market today, does not mean a small market tomorrow.

I've lived a big part of my life in heavily socialist sweden, and I cannot think of anything the government has done better than the free markets.

In fact, sweden has been forced to privatize lots of areas (phone companies, drug stores, online gambling, (...)

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx tv etc.) because the government was so bad at running those services and the market so good, that in the end, the market was stronger.

@h4890 @thedesertlynx Well, also if there's a gap, and that gap is potentially profitable, someone will fill the gap.

It's not like people would just pass on those opportunities waiting for a government to step in.

So what's needed is the de-monopolisation of government for this incentive to be present.

But I guess I'm just the annoying lazy libertarian without any actual solution to bring to the table. 😃

(I know I'm coming out aggressive, but the OP was kinda aggressively worded as well)

@h4890 @thedesertlynx Actually, what I find kinda sad is the kind of libertarians that keep preaching what others should do and which way they should do it.

Not only it's contrary to libertarian values, but it turns people away from libertarianism. We are then seen as a bunch of angry online state-haters and people lose even the little interest they had in the actual thoughts behind it.

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx

I think one fundamental dilemma with libertarianism is that it is like hearding cats.

By its very nature it attracts strong individuals, and getting them to work together, compromising etc. is very difficult.

It is much easier for collectivist ideologies to come together to change, than for us.

As for preaching, I used to try and help people who want more money, more freedom, less government inteference, but I realized that what people want is someone to (...)

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx complain to, they have zero interest in actually doing anything, so I eventually thought "why should I waste my time when they don't want to act?"

So now a days I keep my libertarianism to myself and friends and family, and focus on saving my closed ones.

As for the world, they seem to love their chains, so they can keep them for all I care. =(

@h4890 @thedesertlynx Well, I had a few discussion with you when I had an account on liberdon, and I wouldn't say you're part of the issue I was talking about.

I'm currently happy to be employed as it allows me to work on OSS projects that I'm passioned about as a software developer and make a decent living. I can see how some could say that I could do better on my own, but I think it's all about personal preference and nobody can really tell if something else would be better for me.

@h4890 @thedesertlynx So I think libertarianism requires the least amount of compromising. For me it's about doing what fits your preference. Whether it's choosing the comfort of using an existing solution, or the freedom of creating your own.

The difference for me is having the choice on the individual level.

That's why I don't see a point in demanding any act or behaviour from people in the name of libertarianism, unless it's about stopping some kind of oppression.

@h4890 @thedesertlynx But what I was mainly talking about is those kind of "statist" vs "libertarian" flame wars that basically degrade the whole thing to an "android" vs "ios" level.

That doesn't help anyone, really.

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx

Yes, that's the beauty of my world view. ;) If you want to live like a communist in a commune without private property, go for it! =) As long as you allow me to live the way I want (0 taxes and I pay for what I use).

Sadly all communists I've met would never even dream of letting me live the way I want, even though I have no objections against them living the way they want to.

So I think for me, aggressive non aggressiveness is one of the fundamentals. (...)

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx

Then of course, I believe that society as a whole would benefit from my way of living, and everyone would benefit, but as you say, once you start to discuss if society would benefit, it becomes theoretical and quickly becomes angry.

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx

I think neither of you come off as aggressive. But then again, since I live maskfree in a masked world, I've gotten plenty of opportunities to train myself to not be dragged into arguments and violence given all the abuse I've had to take. ;)

So you two are a mild breeze in comparison! ;)

Speaking of what you said above, let me give you an example...

Corona tests while flying. They anger me, so I created my own service together with a doctor I know that (...)

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx used online testing and saliva based tests, so no nose poking, and no waiting in line in a clinic possibly infecting others etc. etc. Sounds good right?

A month or two later, one of the biggest clinics, venture capital funded, managed to persuade the government to demand that all clinics performing tests should be connected to the governments system.

Result:

Only 12 (big) companies left, ban on online testing, longer lines, prices going up etc. etc.

As (...)

@UncleAlbie @thedesertlynx the Monty Python saying goes... dear government "I fart in your general direction".

@h4890 @thedesertlynx That's a great example of why I think it makes sense to criticise government programs even without proposing an actual solution. If governments are closing any window for such solutions, it makes sense to me to focus on that.

Even though I don't have a similar experience of starting a project like that, I still disagree with this happening.

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